BMW M CEO On The Future Of M Cars -- /DRIVE ON NBC SPORTS...

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by DrtyJrze

What some of you can't get through your thick skulls is that for every one of you that move on to something else 3-5 more will come and take your place.

Bye.

With pleasure, thanks!

BMW's former enthusiast customers and new target markets are nearly orthogonal. This seems to be a deliberate decision by management. Good for them. Good for me.

I know which tribe I belong to.

[Sephiroth]

Wow! This thread is really something

[MSCD]

Like the man said the brand evolves with the market. The 1M and M2 wouldn't exist if they didn't listen to the criticism of the size of the M3.

I think M sport editions between standard and proper M cars are what the market wants... not everyone wants a M3 for a daily or they can't afford one, doesn't make them less of an enthusiast... am I a fan of all the autonomous aids, not really but you can't argue with the progress. I constantly see people looking at phones not the road...

M is special - the Audi RS brand doesn't have the same emotion attached to us and AMG was a 3rd party before and doesn't evoke the same following - sure there nice cars but it really isn't the same. Audi sticks s-line on everything and AMG can be found on most models.

Dackel, thanks for posting.... wish they have shown the special M cars... M5 cabrio - was that Techno Violet?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

There's a better way forward, my friend. Each of these cars are "halos" for the company, like the M4 GTS is for BMW. The "character" of each car, to use BMW-speak, speaks to my passion in a manner the BMW doesn't. Chevy, Ford, and Porsche seem committed to their enthusiast core, while still growing the business and coping with identical regulatory, legislative, political, and environmental challenges as BMW. They will likely need to adopt new propulsion in the future, but they aren't rushing to embrace that tech on their halo cars today.

Well Porsche have Hybrids and they will have electric cars in the future .
The rest is the issue as the US cars are not sold globally in other markets so then GM and Ford do not have to concern themselves with market regulations out with the US. Sure they might be sold via specialists but the only non-US registered Camaros I have seen in Germany are owned by those that have a Transformers fetish. Look at the differences between the Ford Mustang in Europe against America and how it has been adapted for Europe.
BMW sells M cars across the globe and again identify with the legislation of each market and its requirements without having to deter or cheat their way legislative requirements.

[raysspl]

BMW can't help it. Tesla, MBZ, Ford, & GM have their R&D spend on autonomous driving. If BMW doesn't penny up on the same field, guess who'd be out first?

Tech is a double edge sword... Like most of you here, I cringe at the idea of an autonomous M-car but it's bound to happen...

[440xiGCMsport]

I think people are mixing up the idea of electric or hybrid cars as not being enthusiast cars. Porsche and various automakers have already proven that electric cars can indeed be made into sporty cars or sports cars. the point is that BMW M division needs specialize the cars to target the enthusiast and not wore the M brand out and to make the cars to mass market appeal. this is not the role of the M brand. BMW has the i brand and also the regular cars for for the daily driver and the electric daily driver. M BRAND IS A HALO car and HALO car/brand is not a mass appeal product. M brand should exists to showcase BMW ultimate driving machines and thus allow BMW to uphold an image of superior engineering to allow them to sell more regular daily cars and i brand cars. autonomous cars should be left to the regular BMW and the i brand within BMW. just like the i brand is specialized to target niche customers who like eco cars why can't the M brand be target to enthusiasts who want an ultimate driving car be it electric or petrol without all the autonomous crap and other crappie that would make the car heavier and less enjoyable.

[krautmeister]

440ixc....

You hit it on the head right there. What you're proposing is "correct" segmentation and sub brand positioning....which exists to prevent dilution of the BMW brand. "i" for eco/tech, "M" for ultimate performance. All the rest get the corporate luxo cars with performance sprinkled in.

What the problem is.... consumers do understand the M brand equity.... and BMW is happy to sprinkle it on the lower price points to bump sales. That's why the ///M guys are upset. BMW is mortgaging their brand to keep up with their competition. It's inevitable.... in a few years I'll be willing to bet they will cater to the Chinese market and the rest of the world will get their leftovers much as the US dictated BMW strategy in the past. And the Chinese have a ways to go for performance driving culture....they don't have it intertwined like Americans and Europeans in their heritage.

[Meast]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1280G7

I guess this report of Germany wanted to stop the sale of combustion engines by 2030 sheds a little light on "technology" and "2030". It all depends on if the US also joins the growing initiative. An all electric M car, what a world what a world!

[adc]

Originally Posted by krautmeister

BMW too will whore out their brand that they built with enthusiasts as Audi has and Mercedes has. They will convince all the lemmings that it's still legit, then when the market plateaus.... and economies have a hiccup, people will vote with the wallet and the M bastardization will end.

Just as well... millennial males are pussies and becoming more and more effeminate, so no amount of plaid or beard oil will substitute for real masculine attributes.

///M cars of yore are over. It is now a marketing buzzword.... and trust me, I'm a marketer and if I were in charge of BMW, I'd do that for short term payoff and peace out. They cannot ignore that kind of momentum and coin to ignore the sheep masses.

Is that why you are driving an"M-sport"? these are harsh words from someone who doesn't own a real M car and went instead for the watered down version M-arketing special, don't you think?

Originally Posted by 440xiGCMsport

ummm we have electric steering because of this autonomous driving and lane keep etc. it is easier for manufacturers to incorporate these features with electric steering.
the more features the more motors and computers thus more weight etc.
in my opinion if you don't want to drive in the future than call an autonomous taxi or uber but I would like my cars without all this electronics and cost, weight and all the other negatives with increased electronics.
look at the antique cars and collector cars, with all these electronics we won't have any because no one can get parts after xx years.

Well to be true to the facts, the current M3/4 weigh less than the previous ones, so you cannot make blanket statements. You have to judge the end result, right?

And believe me, you DON'T want to have a highway crash in an antique car. Nothing before the year 1995-ish is really safe in an accident. And I doubt that my F80 will ever be a collectible classic on its merits vs the competition.



I am concerned like many of you, and I cringe at several things more than I cringe about the specific engine technology in my M3:
- The M brand dilution via the pseudo-M cars (M240i, etc). M was supposed to signify a very focused car, the athlete of the family. The M240i is the slightly pudgy brother to the M2 decathlete. Shouldn't it be a "240is" instead or something?
- BMW is falling behind in damping technology and suspension setups - these days Porsche and even GM seem to be at the next level while M is resolutely stuck in the last decade.

In contrast, I simply don't understand the criticism leveled at the S55 in the media, it's an amazing engine IMO and it works beautifully, excitingly at the track.

[krautmeister]

Originally Posted by adc

Is that why you are driving an"M-sport"? these are harsh words from someone who doesn't own a real M car and went instead for the watered down version M-arketing special, don't you think?

You're spot on... I did indeed want something between a 550i and M5... M Sport slotted in there. I bought preowned so the pricing model is irrelevant. I could have easily bought a preowned M5 the same as my 550... as the price delta isn't astronomical.

I don't have a personal dog in this M fight and certainly I wouldn't consider my 550 is an M car by any means. They are splashing the M logo everywhere and it does carry a bit of that essence, which is attractive I believe. I do however feel like it does dilute the brand when its only used for this in-between... as if the in-between didn't exist, I would have bought M5. I am not sure by covering every minutia of price points is growing the business or if the purchases would transfer between the models.

I'm not entirely sure if people are going elsewhere, but it does seem to be the driving factor that everyone is jumping on the sport moniker (i.e. AMG, S-Line, F Sport, etc.)

ETA: This is more of a marketing / business strategy rant vs. my personal feelings on M cars.... just pointing out that these topics are inevitable and there will be a point where companies trip because of this. They will however, continue to do what they need to do...even if its diluting the M brand because the big middle is where the money is... M cars are a fraction of BMW sales.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Some highlights:

The interview takes place at the BMW M Studio in Garching, home of BMW M. The building that houses the M Studio started as the manufacturing room for the first BMW M3 (the DTM cars).

An M car is about motorsports and emotion - the way it looks and the character of the car. Going forward, it’s important for M to keep its character. It’s not so much about the specific technology of the car. It’s about the character and the technology fitting the car’s overall concept and character. An M3 for instance in the year 2030 will be an M3 regarding character, despite its exact technology not being known right now.

BMW M sees autonomous driving as a very good add-on feature for M cars. In the future, if that feature is available for M cars, it will be really helpful for slow moving traffic or traffic jams so you can relax and let the car drive itself because it’s no fun anyway, but as soon as the road clears or if you’re on the track then you’re driving yourself.

Conducting the interview in a “very special room” with a 30-year history doesn’t change the fact that BMW abandoned its Motorsport heritage.

Why has Mercedes AMG been dominating F1 for the past 4 seasons while BMW’s M Division continues to sit on the sidelines?

BMW’s iconic Motorsport Division that produced the E28 M535i, E30 M3, M-Coupes, Z8, E39 M5, E46 M3, etc., simply doesn’t exist anymore. BMW has completely abandoned its Motorsport heritage by putting mass-produced, overly-boosted, standard BMW engines in their techno-gadget M-cars. This is the so-called “character” of today’s M-Cars, and it all signifies the end of a once great era for BMW’s Motorsport Division.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

Conducting the interview in a “very special room” with a 30-year history doesn’t change the fact that BMW abandoned its Motorsport heritage.

Why has Mercedes AMG been dominating F1 for the past 4 seasons while BMW’s M Division continues to sit on the sidelines?

BMW’s iconic Motorsport Division that produced the E28 M535i, E30 M3, M-Coupes, Z8, E39 M5, E46 M3, etc., simply doesn’t exist anymore. BMW has completely abandoned its Motorsport heritage by putting mass-produced, overly-boosted, standard BMW engines in their techno-gadget M-cars. This is the so-called “character” of today’s M-Cars, and it all signifies the end of a once great era for BMW’s Motorsport Division.

Rant notwithstanding, the F80 is BMW's best track car - stock - that I have experienced to date.

I understand the CSL, GTS etc might be better but out of the cars you can actually get your hands on, this is the best one so far.

And I agree with you they should get back in F1, and build a driver's car to rival the AMG GT S.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by adc

And I agree with you they should get back in F1, and build a driver's car to rival the AMG GT S.

No offense -- I've appreciated the points you've made, though I feel some are incorrect when viewed by the company -- but both you and I know neither of these will ever happen.

In fact, the latter has never happened. BMW's never produced a so-called "Halo" car on its own. M-B has, and can, and does, because it's a far, far, far larger company with the means and the precedent to do so.

As for the former: Any BMW involvement in F1 now would carry such an immense risk to the brand that it's not even worth consideration. Why? Because of M-B's dominance (and not just in F1; the WEC is likely out, too, because of Audi and Porsche's recent dominance there), which is part and parcel as to why BMW is 'mortgaging' ///M in its consumer cars -- It's one of the few points BMW can compete with its primary rival in, since M-B doesn't leverage the AMG brand much in actual competitive auto racing.

Also remember that BMW has its hands in a cookie jar that M-B doesn't: motorcycles. BMW Motorrad takes resources that might otherwise be funneled toward racing. Thing is, BMW Motorrad is likely also seen as a key component of BMW AG's long-term global brand strategy -- which, as many have bemoaned, aims more and more away from the go-fast livery of yore with each passing year.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by adc

Rant notwithstanding, the F80 is BMW's best track car - stock - that I have experienced to date.

I understand the CSL, GTS etc might be better but out of the cars you can actually get your hands on, this is the best one so far.

And I agree with you they should get back in F1, and build a driver's car to rival the AMG GT S.

I didn't mean to imply that BMW should get back in to F1, because they simply don't have what it takes to compete anymore. I was just pointing out that while Mercedes AMG is producing championship F1 race cars that are winning at the pinnacle of motorsport, BMW is sitting on the sidelines.

Regarding the F80 M3. My friend has one and its a nice looking car. The problem I have with it is the turbocharged S55 engine, which is pretty much the same as the turbocharged N55 engine in the M235i (and reminiscent of the S50B30US engine’s minor changes over the M50). No matter how much turbocharged horsepower, torque and synthesized cabin sound the S55 produces, it’s not a special engine built from the block up by BMW Motorsport GmbH.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

I didn't mean to imply that BMW should get back in to F1, because they simply don't have what it takes to compete anymore. I was just pointing out that while Mercedes AMG is producing championship F1 race cars that are winning at the pinnacle of motorsport, BMW is sitting on the sidelines.

Regarding the F80 M3. My friend has one and its a nice looking car. The problem I have with it is the turbocharged S55 engine, which is pretty much the same as the turbocharged N55 engine in the M235i (and reminiscent of the S50B30US engine’s minor changes over the M50). No matter how much turbocharged horsepower, torque and synthesized cabin sound the S55 produces, it’s not a special engine built from the block up by BMW Motorsport GmbH.

You may care about all that tradition baloney, I don't. I care about the results - the F80 driven at 10/10s is energetic, fast, fun, doesn't understeer and generally just gets your pulse racing. Like its predecessors it stays with you and works with you in an intuitive fashion but doesn't have the handling handicaps the other generations had (variable camber at the front depending on load). That is why the front end is so much more positive, and you can get such good tire wear at the track, stock.

And in terms of things you care about, the S55 is nothing like the N55. The bore centers may be spaced the same, but that's it. The S55 has a closed bedplate with different internal cooling, a twin turbo setup that's totally different (meaning intake and exhaust is different), has a magnesium alloy dual pickup oil sump system, air to water intercooling as opposed to air to air etc. What is more, the cooling system is incredible, a notch above any other previous M car.
These differences make it such a beast on track.

But yeah, sorry it doesn't have a heavy but totally bespoke iron block like the E46. Oops I guess it's not a real M car nice try BMW.

[Law]

Originally Posted by adc

You may care about all that tradition baloney, I don't. I care about the results - the F80 driven at 10/10s is energetic, fast, fun, doesn't understeer and generally just gets your pulse racing. Like its predecessors it stays with you and works with you in an intuitive fashion but doesn't have the handling handicaps the other generations had (variable camber at the front depending on load). That is why the front end is so much more positive, and you can get such good tire wear at the track, stock.

And in terms of things you care about, the S55 is nothing like the N55. The bore centers may be spaced the same, but that's it. The S55 has a closed bedplate with different internal cooling, a twin turbo setup that's totally different (meaning intake and exhaust is different), has a magnesium alloy dual pickup oil sump system, air to water intercooling as opposed to air to air etc. What is more, the cooling system is incredible, a notch above any other previous M car.
These differences make it such a beast on track.

But yeah, sorry it doesn't have a heavy but totally bespoke iron block like the E46. Oops I guess it's not a real M car nice try BMW.

You do realize all that fancy talk about magnesium and twin turbos only amount to a 25% difference/new development right?
Just thought you should know, since numbers are so important.

Its no secret that the F8x is probably the most capable out-of-the-box M3 to date and is faster than its predecessors, as it should be.
If the numbers game is what's most important to you then congratulations, you currently own the most capable and up-to-date generation, until the next generation, or until an F82 GTS or Nissan GT-R pulls up next to you.
It's an endless cycle as there will always be newer & better performing cars, but some people just want the newest and fastest car period...and more power to them, literally.

But not everyone shares that mindset.
In particular, many car enthusiasts value emotional thrill and theatre much more than numbers. Neither 0-60 numbers nor 'Ring times is going to change that.
It's the same reason why anyone would choose a 6MT over a DCT/PDK.
To many, the pedigree, tradition, and story of a marque is important. The feel and soul of revving a sonorous engine built upon such pedigree/tradition is not something that can be measured in metrics.
There's a reason why 993s, 997 GT3s, E30 M3s, etc, are sought after and retain value. Hell, even the E46 ZCP (yea the one with the horrid, heavy, iron block) is holding steady in value.
To discount older generations of well-established nameplates like "911" and "M3" because the newest one is faster & "better" on paper is not something I can agree with.

To some, it's about "results", as you said yourself.
And that's fine, but realize that to others there's more to a car than numbers and spec sheets.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Law

You do realize all that fancy talk about magnesium and twin turbos only amount to a 25% difference/new development right?
Just thought you should know, since numbers are so important.

Its no secret that the F8x is probably the most capable out-of-the-box M3 to date and is faster than its predecessors, as it should be.
If the numbers game is what's most important to you then congratulations, you currently own the most capable and up-to-date generation, until the next generation, or until an F82 GTS or Nissan GT-R pulls up next to you.
It's an endless cycle as there will always be newer & better performing cars, but some people just want the newest and fastest car period...and more power to them, literally.

But not everyone shares that mindset.
In particular, many car enthusiasts value emotional thrill and theatre much more than numbers. Neither 0-60 numbers nor 'Ring times is going to change that.
It's the same reason why anyone would choose a 6MT over a DCT/PDK.
To many, the pedigree, tradition, and story of a marque is important. The feel and soul of revving a sonorous engine built upon such pedigree/tradition is not something that can be measured in metrics.
There's a reason why 993s, 997 GT3s, E30 M3s, etc, are sought after and retain value. Hell, even the E46 ZCP (yea the one with the horrid, heavy, iron block) is holding steady in value.
To discount older generations of well-established nameplates like "911" and "M3" because the newest one is faster & "better" on paper is not something I can agree with.

To some, it's about "results", as you said yourself.
And that's fine, but realize that to others there's more to a car than numbers and spec sheets.

Not sure why you had to intervene in a post I addressed as comments to someone else, but here we go.

I don't care about the numbers, not sure where you got that impression from. When I say results, I mean as in "a better car", the whole enchilada. The F80 handles better than the E46, E90, and E30 (most of all) and is just a much more exciting car to push to the limits. I'm on the fence about the E36 - perhaps it's the rosy glow of first M car ownership but I recall it being better balanced overall than the E46.

I am able to recognize the achievements past without being blind to their shortcomings. For example, if I were to build a track car right now, based on the price vs fun ratio I would do an E46. And if cost were no issue then I wouldn't stop at BMWs doorstep.

But the best M car that i have sampled to date is the F80, as simple as that. Forget lap times, it's the best driving tool they made outside the unobtainium specials (CSL, GTS, etc.).

And if you value emotional thrill and theatre above all - and want to stay in BMW land - then forget the M3 of any generation - just get a Z4M coupe or roadster and call it a day. Their one and only real sports car. Everything else is just a sedan, autrement coiffé.

[Law]

Originally Posted by adc

Not sure why you had to intervene in a post I addressed as comments to someone else, but here we go.

I don't care about the numbers, not sure where you got that impression from. When I say results, I mean as in "a better car", the whole enchilada. The F80 handles better than the E46, E90, and E30 (most of all) and is just a much more exciting car to push to the limits. I'm on the fence about the E36 - perhaps it's the rosy glow of first M car ownership but I recall it being better balanced overall than the E46.

I am able to recognize the achievements past without being blind to their shortcomings. For example, if I were to build a track car right now, based on the price vs fun ratio I would do an E46. And if cost were no issue then I wouldn't stop at BMWs doorstep.

But the best M car that i have sampled to date is the F80, as simple as that. Forget lap times, it's the best driving tool they made outside the unobtainium specials (CSL, GTS, etc.).

And if you value emotional thrill and theatre above all - and want to stay in BMW land - then forget the M3 of any generation - just get a Z4M coupe or roadster and call it a day. Their one and only real sports car. Everything else is just a sedan, autrement coiffé.

Don't forget this is a public discussion. Sorry to interrupt on your private message

I've always admired the Z4 M coupes. But it's really a case of meeting your heroes. I've driven several (incl. the vert E85) throughout the years and didn't feel that it offered anything in particular experience-wise that drastically differed from my E46. Its a smaller car yes, but a 6MT E46 M is just as thrilling to drive.
Still breaks my neck every time a see one [E86 M] though.

I must say, 4-door saloon and thrill/theatre are not mutually exclusive. You should know that BMW M has built its reputation precisely because of the formula that infused these emotional elements into what are otherwise ordinary daily drivers/saloon cars. You should also know this as a former E9X owner that the E9X does not fall short in this regard, and neither did the E46, E36, etc. for that matter.

My impression about the obsession with numbers comes from discussions on this board, where discussions between rival opinions often degenerate into something along the lines of "it's faster/newer and hence better, period." It is also in response to "all that tradition baloney".
I don't think I misunderstood your usage of "results" as meaning purely on-paper metrics. "Better" car on paper was the term I used to rephrase your message, and it has been reaffirmed/restated in your post above.
A newer car is, more often than not, better on paper than its predecessors, as it should be.
My point is that there are those who are drawn to such heritage/tradition, where the numbers are less significant.
It's just a different school of thought, really.

Anyways, I do enjoy a good discussion so don't take the interruption personally.
Just putting my 2 cents on the "faster/newer is better" motif that is too frequently thrown around whenever anyone says anything even vaguely nostalgic about BMWs and M-cars.
So, relax, this isn't a jab at you or the F80, its a great car, good day

[adc]

Originally Posted by Law

Don't forget this is a public discussion. Sorry to interrupt on your private message

I've always admired the Z4 M coupes. But it's really a case of meeting your heroes. I've driven several (incl. the vert E85) throughout the years and didn't feel that it offered anything in particular experience-wise that drastically differed from my E46. Its a smaller car yes, but a 6MT E46 M is just as thrilling to drive.
Still breaks my neck every time a see one [E86 M] though.

I must say, 4-door saloon and thrill/theatre are not mutually exclusive. You should know that BMW M has built its reputation precisely because of the formula that infused these emotional elements into what are otherwise ordinary daily drivers/saloon cars. You should also know this as a former E9X owner that the E9X does not fall short in this regard, and neither did the E46, E36, etc. for that matter.

My impression about the obsession with numbers comes from discussions on this board, where discussions between rival opinions often degenerate into something along the lines of "it's faster/newer and hence better, period." It is also in response to "all that tradition baloney".
I don't think I misunderstood your usage of "results" as meaning purely on-paper metrics. "Better" car on paper was the term I used to rephrase your message, and it has been reaffirmed/restated in your post above.
A newer car is, more often than not, better on paper than its predecessors, as it should be.
My point is that there are those who are drawn to such heritage/tradition, where the numbers are less significant.
It's just a different school of thought, really.

Anyways, I do enjoy a good discussion so don't take the interruption personally.
Just putting my 2 cents on the "faster/newer is better" motif that is too frequently thrown around whenever anyone says anything even vaguely nostalgic about BMWs and M-cars.
So, relax, this isn't a jab at you or the F80, its a great car, good day

Well, I've been there and done that, 6 years with the E90 and loved every minute. Switched to the F80 and love it, what can I say. It's not just that I don't have regrets, but I like the F80 more.

To me the special edge of an M car is what it can do on track, and I mean how well it works with you, how well it responds to your inputs, how much it can teach you (about driving and about yourself), and ultimately how much fun it is.

If that is not drama and emotion, then I'm on the wrong forum. Different school of thought indeed.

Enjoy the old girl.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by Law

Don't forget this is a public discussion. Sorry to interrupt on your private message

I've always admired the Z4 M coupes. But it's really a case of meeting your heroes. I've driven several (incl. the vert E85) throughout the years and didn't feel that it offered anything in particular experience-wise that drastically differed from my E46. Its a smaller car yes, but a 6MT E46 M is just as thrilling to drive.
Still breaks my neck every time a see one [E86 M] though.

I must say, 4-door saloon and thrill/theatre are not mutually exclusive. You should know that BMW M has built its reputation precisely because of the formula that infused these emotional elements into what are otherwise ordinary daily drivers/saloon cars. You should also know this as a former E9X owner that the E9X does not fall short in this regard, and neither did the E46, E36, etc. for that matter.

My impression about the obsession with numbers comes from discussions on this board, where discussions between rival opinions often degenerate into something along the lines of "it's faster/newer and hence better, period." It is also in response to "all that tradition baloney".
I don't think I misunderstood your usage of "results" as meaning purely on-paper metrics. "Better" car on paper was the term I used to rephrase your message, and it has been reaffirmed/restated in your post above.
A newer car is, more often than not, better on paper than its predecessors, as it should be.
My point is that there are those who are drawn to such heritage/tradition, where the numbers are less significant.
It's just a different school of thought, really.

Anyways, I do enjoy a good discussion so don't take the interruption personally.
Just putting my 2 cents on the "faster/newer is better" motif that is too frequently thrown around whenever anyone says anything even vaguely nostalgic about BMWs and M-cars.
So, relax, this isn't a jab at you or the F80, its a great car, good day

I agree with much of what you’ve posted in this thread. Faster plus newer does not always equal better. There are many intangibles that come into play when judging a car’s performance other than obsessing about more horsepower, more torque, faster automatic (dual-clutch) transmissions, faster 0-60 times, faster quarter miles, faster top speeds, etc.

For instance, I club race 2,600 lb Miatas with 177 horsepower and 150 lb-ft of torque. Assuming that the Miata track record set by a professional driver at Lime Rock (my local track) is 10/10ths of what the car is capable of, my best lap times are 9.6/10ths. That means I’m not using all of the car’s available horsepower or grip and I’m running out of talent before running out of 177 horsepower!

That said, naturally aspirated, 4 cylinder, 2 liter, 6-speed manual, rear wheel drive, bare bones Miatas are the most fun cars I’ve ever driven. Even with no twin turbos, no automatic transmission, no 400+ horsepower, no 400+ lb-ft of torque, no infotainment system and no frills.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

Naturally aspirated, 4 cylinder, 2 liter, 6-speed manual, rear wheel drive, bare bones Miatas are the most fun cars I’ve ever driven. Even with no twin turbos, no automatic transmission, no 400+ horsepower, no 400+ lb-ft of torque, no infotainment system and no frills.

A.

Frakking.

MEN.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

I agree with much of what you’ve posted in this thread. Faster plus newer does not always equal better. There are many intangibles that come into play when judging a car’s performance other than obsessing about more horsepower, more torque, faster automatic (dual-clutch) transmissions, faster 0-60 times, faster quarter miles, faster top speeds, etc.

But is it possible that newer and faster is better than what came before, in some cases? We were comparing M3 generations after all, not against track-prepped Miatas.

My whole argument is that in my experience, the F80 is just plain better - and more exciting, and better handling - than the car it replaces. I just don't see how you can turn these into negatives, and still call yourself a car enthusiast, that's all.