Dinan Stage 1 ECU Tune (N63tu Engine)

[BBLF13]

Hi, I recently had a Dinan Tune (Stage 1) done by EAS. Below is the picture of the result.





Stock was around 380 whp.

Putting out 452 hp to the wheels with the tune. What would be this be equivalent to in crank HPs?

Anyone else mind sharing what their 650i is pulling?

Thanks!

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by BBLF13

Hi, I recently had a Dinan Tune (Stage 1) done by EAS. Below is the picture of the result.

Stock was around 380 whp.

Putting out 452 hp to the wheels with the tune. What would be this be equivalent to in crank HPs?

Anyone else mind sharing what their 650i is pulling?

Thanks!

Good running car. Right in line with what is advertised. EAS is a great shop that is one of the few that I would consistently recommend for dynoing.

The most common formula for calculating wheel to crank horsepower is adding in a 15% drivetrain loss factor but that's a very simplified approach. We typically use a PEAK 12-13% drivetrain loss on the late model cars but that varies by gear, rpm, transmission, etc. For simplicity a flat percentage is what is commonly done.

Taking your low HP run that would equate to (using a 13% drivetrain loss):
444 WHP x 1.13 = 501.72 at the crank (506 advertised)
480 WTQ x 1.13 = 542.4 at the crank (547 advertised)

That said your stock numbers were lower than ours (380 WHP x 1.13 = 429.4 at the crank where we saw 446 at the crank with our test vehicle) so you actually gained a bigger delta then what we advertise. Not to mention I assume you were running 91 octane fuel being in California whereas we report using 93 octane so possibly an even larger delta then that.

[Downfourit]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Good running car. Right in line with what is advertised. EAS is a great shop that is one of the few that I would consistently recommend for dynoing.

The most common formula for calculating wheel to crank horsepower is adding in a 15% drivetrain loss factor but that's a very simplified approach. We typically use a PEAK 12-13% drivetrain loss on the late model cars but that varies by gear, rpm, transmission, etc. For simplicity a flat percentage is what is commonly done.

Taking your low HP run that would equate to (using a 13% drivetrain loss):
444 WHP x 1.13 = 501.72 at the crank (506 advertised)
480 WTQ x 1.13 = 542.4 at the crank (547 advertised)

That said your stock numbers were lower than ours (380 WHP x 1.13 = 429.4 at the crank where we saw 446 at the crank with our test vehicle) so you actually gained a bigger delta then what we advertise. Not to mention I assume you were running 91 octane fuel being in California whereas we report using 93 octane so possibly an even larger delta then that.

Question, why is Dinan not flash tuning these cars? I'm just wondering because Dinan always advertised in the past that flash tuning was the only way to tune correctly and kind of talked down on the tuners out there that were using piggyback interfaces to tune. Now you guys are using the same interface as the other tuners and I was just wondering why you guys won't flash these cars as there would be more control over the tune itself and possibly larger gains in power.

[r33_RGSport]

@BBLF13 , my 650GC baseline was 397whp.
It was done at EAS also.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by Downfourit

Question, why is Dinan not flash tuning these cars? I'm just wondering because Dinan always advertised in the past that flash tuning was the only way to tune correctly and kind of talked down on the tuners out there that were using piggyback interfaces to tune. Now you guys are using the same interface as the other tuners and I was just wondering why you guys won't flash these cars as there would be more control over the tune itself and possibly larger gains in power.

This was the official Steve Dinan response to the piggyback criticism in the early development of DINANTRONICS (almost 2 years ago). It does a pretty good job of answering your question so to save me from writing a novel I will just re-post it....

Steve Dinan:

Hi Joseph,

We recently saw your post regarding our new Turbotronics project and wanted to clarify a few points to make sure your readers have the correct information. I stand by my comments on "Tech tip Tuesday". Even though we are making an ECU we are still believe software has superior performance and reliability when compared to an ad on ECU. Having said that the new Bosch ECU has proven more difficult to crack than previous models so we have been forced to go the ECU route. BTW this is Dinan's 16th Turbotronics ECU because we used to make them a long time ago but when we got very good at software we went away from them because of the obvious advantages.

“Tech Tip Tuesday” was also referring to the existing piggy back boxes on the market. Our goal wasn’t to imply that a piggyback box wasn’t a viable tuning solution, but rather the current ones lack sophistication in which is why they make less power, have more drivability issues, are more prone to setting faults and are not emissions legal. I also mentioned that a box would have to be much more sophisticated in order to work properly and not risk any damage or malfunctions with the vehicle long-term.

The reason our software is more expensive than current piggyback systems on the market is the level of work and research that is required to “crack” BMW’s factory computers, the additional cost of the 4 year 50k mile warranty and emissions certification. The cost our R&D, warranty and emission testing when compared to manufacturing the piggy back boxes I see on the market it is more likely they are making more money than Dinan soit is not about money as the person implied it's about doing it right. Most people assume that BMW gives us complete access to the computers, but that is not the case.

We have a team of 5 engineers that do nothing but read through every line of code on each ECU to make sure that all of our software allows the car to function properly, doesn’t interfere with other electronics and keeps factory system safeguards in place.

As far as the new “Turbotronics” units are concerned, (still in development) they essentially are more than a piggy back box they are a powerful ECU that has many more capabilities that the existing piggy back boxes. To help you understanding the additional capabilities as I said in "TECH TIP Tuesday" the existing boxes send a an adjusted signal to the BMWECU telling it he boost is too low and the ECU then raises the boost to what it thinks is the correct value as does ours. This false value creates errors in Fuel mixture and ignition timing. This can causesmore faults, high catalyst inlet temperatures and a loss of power.In addition when you increase power exhaust temperature will increaseand this must be countered with a slightly richer mixture. Our ECU will have the capability of setting a richer target lambda (fuel mixture) as well as correcting short term trip which is the difference between target and scheduled fuel mixture just to mention a couple of it's capabilities. By matching these two correctly we can reduce knock sensor activity which will make smother performance,protect the catalyst, increase power and allow us to make it emissions legal.

We have a lot of exciting new product in the works for N55 powered cars along with products being created for the M235i. Keep an eye on our social media channels for announcements on sales, new products and more of our Tech Tip Tuesday series.

Thanks again for your time and we hope this is helpful. If you’re interested, we would love to have you out to the facility to see our operation first hand.

Sincerely,
Steve Dinan

[zanye08]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

This was the official Steve Dinan response to the piggyback criticism in the early development of DINANTRONICS (almost 2 years ago). It does a pretty good job of answering your question so to save me from writing a novel I will just re-post it....

Steve Dinan:

Hi Joseph,

We recently saw your post regarding our new Turbotronics project and wanted to clarify a few points to make sure your readers have the correct information. I stand by my comments on "Tech tip Tuesday". Even though we are making an ECU we are still believe software has superior performance and reliability when compared to an ad on ECU. Having said that the new Bosch ECU has proven more difficult to crack than previous models so we have been forced to go the ECU route. BTW this is Dinan's 16th Turbotronics ECU because we used to make them a long time ago but when we got very good at software we went away from them because of the obvious advantages.

“Tech Tip Tuesday” was also referring to the existing piggy back boxes on the market. Our goal wasn’t to imply that a piggyback box wasn’t a viable tuning solution, but rather the current ones lack sophistication in which is why they make less power, have more drivability issues, are more prone to setting faults and are not emissions legal. I also mentioned that a box would have to be much more sophisticated in order to work properly and not risk any damage or malfunctions with the vehicle long-term.

The reason our software is more expensive than current piggyback systems on the market is the level of work and research that is required to “crack” BMW’s factory computers, the additional cost of the 4 year 50k mile warranty and emissions certification. The cost our R&D, warranty and emission testing when compared to manufacturing the piggy back boxes I see on the market it is more likely they are making more money than Dinan soit is not about money as the person implied it's about doing it right. Most people assume that BMW gives us complete access to the computers, but that is not the case.

We have a team of 5 engineers that do nothing but read through every line of code on each ECU to make sure that all of our software allows the car to function properly, doesn’t interfere with other electronics and keeps factory system safeguards in place.

As far as the new “Turbotronics” units are concerned, (still in development) they essentially are more than a piggy back box they are a powerful ECU that has many more capabilities that the existing piggy back boxes. To help you understanding the additional capabilities as I said in "TECH TIP Tuesday" the existing boxes send a an adjusted signal to the BMWECU telling it he boost is too low and the ECU then raises the boost to what it thinks is the correct value as does ours. This false value creates errors in Fuel mixture and ignition timing. This can causesmore faults, high catalyst inlet temperatures and a loss of power.In addition when you increase power exhaust temperature will increaseand this must be countered with a slightly richer mixture. Our ECU will have the capability of setting a richer target lambda (fuel mixture) as well as correcting short term trip which is the difference between target and scheduled fuel mixture just to mention a couple of it's capabilities. By matching these two correctly we can reduce knock sensor activity which will make smother performance,protect the catalyst, increase power and allow us to make it emissions legal.

We have a lot of exciting new product in the works for N55 powered cars along with products being created for the M235i. Keep an eye on our social media channels for announcements on sales, new products and more of our Tech Tip Tuesday series.

Thanks again for your time and we hope this is helpful. If you’re interested, we would love to have you out to the facility to see our operation first hand.

Sincerely,
Steve Dinan

What is confusing for me is I have a 12' 650i.. so N63. Is the N63 still a flash tune? or is there a piggy for N63's now too? On Dinan's site there is no mention of Dinatronic

Also does anyone know why N63 550 stock dyno's have been anywhere from 380-395whp? I though N63TU was a 45HP boost

[Downfourit]

Originally Posted by zanye08

What is confusing for me is I have a 12' 650i.. so N63. Is the N63 still a flash tune? or is there a piggy for N63's now too? On Dinan's site there is no mention of Dinatronic

Also does anyone know why N63 550 stock dyno's have been anywhere from 380-395whp? I though N63TU was a 45HP boost

The baseline numbers range differently because different day, different dyno scenarios. You would have to put an N63 and a TU on the same dyno and see the results. Plus you have to understand that 45hp crank comes out to about 15-20whp and I have seen N63TU baselines around 412whp so it makes sense. This dyno is the highest I know for an N63 or TU and he was running the JB tune on a 550Xi. Again, every dyno varies and it's hard to see exact results from car to car and dyno to dyno..

[zanye08]

Originally Posted by Downfourit

The baseline numbers range differently because different day, different dyno scenarios. You would have to put an N63 and a TU on the same dyno and see the results. Plus you have to understand that 45hp crank comes out to about 15-20whp and I have seen N63TU baselines around 412whp so it makes sense. This dyno is the highest I know for an N63 or TU and he was running the JB tune on a 550Xi. Again, every dyno varies and it's hard to see exact results from car to car and dyno to dyno..

Makes sense..I am thinking in my head that the graphs would still average much lower for N63's... by a larger amount. Instead its been almost the opposite..so many N63 (550's) mostly have baselines that seem higher than the average TU's...I admit not as many TU graphs around.. for a comparison.

Wonder how valvetronic helps? I am actually glad I dont have valvetronic..as I have had a variety of Bimmers with it and had all sorts of valvetrain noise ticks failures..etc.

I checked all over..seems there is no Dinantronic for n63

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by zanye08

What is confusing for me is I have a 12' 650i.. so N63. Is the N63 still a flash tune? or is there a piggy for N63's now too? On Dinan's site there is no mention of Dinatronic

N63 (non-TU) cars were the last of the software tuned cars so no, there is no piggyback for those vehicles as software could still be applied from Dinan. The TU motors switched ECU's in the process as well going from the Siemens ECU to a Bosch one on the TU motors. The newer Bosch ECU has encryption (NSA level) that essentially makes traditional software tuning impossible without physically bypassing the encryption by opening/drilling into the DME so the DINANTRONICS were born because of that.

[BBLF13]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

@BBLF13 , my 650GC baseline was 397whp.
It was done at EAS also.

My baseline whp were a bit low because it was dynoed during a very hot day in cali. 100+ degrees when I did the dyno. They had to cool down the engine for a bit.

On that note, does weather really makes a huge difference with power output?

And yes it was running 91 Octane. I wanna try to dyno the car again with race gas (100 octane). How much power should i be expecting? Dinan_Engineering

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by BBLF13

My baseline whp were a bit low because it was dynoed during a very hot day in cali. 100+ degrees when I did the dyno. They had to cool down the engine for a bit.

On that note, does weather really makes a huge difference with power output?

And yes it was running 91 Octane. I wanna try to dyno the car again with race gas (100 octane). How much power should i be expecting? Dinan_Engineering

Yes, weather does affect.
The humidity play a big factor also.

[zanye08]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

N63 (non-TU) cars were the last of the software tuned cars so no, there is no piggyback for those vehicles as software could still be applied from Dinan. The TU motors switched ECU's in the process as well going from the Siemens ECU to a Bosch one on the TU motors. The newer Bosch ECU has encryption (NSA level) that essentially makes traditional software tuning impossible without physically bypassing the encryption by opening/drilling into the DME so the DINANTRONICS were born because of that.

Thanks for the info. Makes perfect sense. Looking forward to Stage 1 flash this summer!

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by BBLF13

My baseline whp were a bit low because it was dynoed during a very hot day in cali. 100+ degrees when I did the dyno. They had to cool down the engine for a bit.

On that note, does weather really makes a huge difference with power output?

And yes it was running 91 Octane. I wanna try to dyno the car again with race gas (100 octane). How much power should i be expecting? Dinan_Engineering

From 91 to 100 octane race gas you would be expecting a 25-30 WHP increase...give or take.

[BBLF13]

Dinan_Engineering Thanks!!!! Looking forward to get the tune with the race gas. I will post it up when I do.

I'm considering the stage 2. Will it be much of a difference comparing from stock to stage 1? Thanks again!!

[arsenius]

!

[Downfourit]

Originally Posted by arsenius

Dinan

I have 614 hp on stage 2

I'd like to see those numbers on a Dynojet here in the states, I have a feeling that old Moscow mule (dyno) is producing inflated numbers from outer space! Plus the graph is saying crank horsepower and NM for torque.. Show us a real wheel horsepower graph!

[arsenius]

!

[murph914]

I hope Dinan chimes in again. Love to hear them explain DIN vs SAE and unlocking the ECU in a week. I am going to make some popcorn.

[Downfourit]

Originally Posted by arsenius

Ha-ha, Superflow it the best dynojet! And programing ECU was made by european company during 3 weeks with many tests on road and dyno. Dinan just box, we unlocked ECU first.

The fact that the dyno is reading crank horsepower shows the amount of BS you are posting is ridiculous. It's on a dyno, what's the problem with it showing wheel horsepower like every other dyno on earth? Somehow you magically unlocked the NSA level encryption on the BMW ECU? You would be the only one, again very hard to believe. Then again this is Russia, no truth comes out of that place

[arsenius]

!

[Downfourit]

Originally Posted by arsenius

Dyno and manufactures shows engine horsepower. I show you how to unlock ECU by CMD! If you don't know what is it, stop taking!
http://www.br-performance.be/en-be/c...ic/?stage=5717 Stage 2 575 hp
The truth is that my 650 GC is the fasten in the world!

Your 650 is not even close to the fastest in the world because you have no real world results. Every dyno shows wheel horsepower, what are you afraid of showing, the real numbers? Don Svidania.

[BBLF13]

Originally Posted by Downfourit

Your 650 is not even close to the fastest in the world because you have no real world results. Every dyno shows wheel horsepower, what are you afraid of showing, the real numbers? Don Svidania.

@arsenius Downfourit

Based on mathematical calculation
614 CHP x 0.87 (13% drivetrain loss) = 534.16 WHP.