Still want an EV?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Someone should start a thread on this news from Toyota.

Sure . But it's something a lot of us know already.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Sure . But it's something a lot of us know already.

It was a joke. There is already a thread on precisely the article and topic.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by gblansten

It was a joke. There is already a thread on precisely the article and topic.

I realise there is another thread but my point was that ex boss of Toyota is saying something what is known already.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I realise there is another thread but my point was that ex boss of Toyota is saying something what is known already.

Good, because I figured you saw it.

[cfm56d7b]

This article by Mark P. Mills, a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute could not be more illuminating on the subject.


https://manhattan.institute/article/...possible-dream

Worth reading from start to finish.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

This article by Mark P. Mills, a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute could not be more illuminating on the subject.


https://manhattan.institute/article/...possible-dream

Worth reading from start to finish.

Interesting read and lots to digest. None of it good really. The US has 1 million gas pumps and will need 4 times as many fast chargers to deal with demand if a full conversion to EV's happens. Most gas stations are small businesses, not owned by Oil companies, the cost will be staggering for those businesses and then there will be the need to increase electricity production and delivery to those stations. Those costs will be born out in the cost of electricity at the pump and to your home. Oh and also by all the industries who use electricity for production, those costs will be passed along to consumers. EV's clearly aren't going to make life more affordable, the fact is life will get a lot more expensive.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Interesting read and lots to digest. None of it good really. The US has 1 million gas pumps and will need 4 times as many fast chargers to deal with demand if a full conversion to EV's happens. Most gas stations are small businesses, not owned by Oil companies, the cost will be staggering for those businesses and then there will be the need to increase electricity production and delivery to those stations. Those costs will be born out in the cost of electricity at the pump and to your home. Oh and also by all the industries who use electricity for production, those costs will be passed along to consumers. EV's clearly aren't going to make life more affordable, the fact is life will get a lot more expensive.

You saved me reading it

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Interesting read and lots to digest. None of it good really. The US has 1 million gas pumps and will need 4 times as many fast chargers to deal with demand if a full conversion to EV's happens. Most gas stations are small businesses, not owned by Oil companies, the cost will be staggering for those businesses and then there will be the need to increase electricity production and delivery to those stations. Those costs will be born out in the cost of electricity at the pump and to your home. Oh and all businesses will pass the increased electrical costs to consumers. EV's clearly aren't going to make life more affordable, the fact is life will get a lot more expensive.

Fixed it for you. Unless you're Amish and only work with hand tools with kerosene lanterns when it gets dark, every single business is going to pass the increased operating costs of "keeping the lights on" to the customers. Everything is going to go up in price. People think the current inflationary environment is crushing, they haven't seen anything yet.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You saved me reading it

It's a long article, but worth the read on a Sunday morning or afternoon. It pretty much covers everything from the mining of battery materials and energy used to do that, to production costs EV vs ICE, technology and the ability to advance for both EV and ICE (ICE has so much more potential and really could be cleaner and cheaper over time). Pretty much in-depth of what much of the discussion has been here for so many pages.


SPOILER ALERT: EV's aren't all they're cracked up to be.

[gonzo]

Strong article/full-blown research documentation. I got ADD zings about a third in. I don't sit still very well.

It's just that his exhaustive efforts will be shunned by The Church.
Heck, they might even call him a racist or a fascist.

Many of us schizophrenic types saw this OBEY nonsense falling apart like a cheap shirt...and here we are.
Companies will only swallow so much loss before a big sod off.

Lmmmmaaaaaooooo will keep believing.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by cfm56d7b

This article by Mark P. Mills, a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute could not be more illuminating on the subject.
https://manhattan.institute/article/...possible-dream
Worth reading from start to finish.

One of the best articles I have read lately.
However the overlooked elephant in the room is drawing conclusion on how we got here. We now live in a post fact world. From Middle East history, economic realities, the history of our planet, facts mean nothing and ideology, peer acceptance and virtue signaling rule the world.
The green hypocrisy of Greta Thunberg is no different than the chants of gay students in support of fundamentalist islamic terrorists. Both lack a base of knowledge and a understanding of history.
The green hypocrites are oblivious to the facts that their efforts to save the planet are in fact causing more damage to the environment and to the economies of millions of people.
We all make decisions on what we want and then set about to weave scenarios to support our wants. We surround our selves with like minded people and ignore or censor opinions or facts that don't support what we want.

[Condorll]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The article was lacking real direct data from Hertz regarding the "higher than expected maintenance costs for EV". It cited a less mature parts logicistics system forvl Teslas and some 3rd party speculation about EV weight and torque delivery as increasing tire and suspension wear. It would be nice to see real data.

I rented a Model Y from Hertz for 24 hours on a short trip. When I got the car it had a 83% charge. I turned it in the next day after driving only 19 miles with 68% charge left. Do the math from 100% to 0% that is 126 miles of range. To add insult to disapointment when I checked in at Hertz the bill claimed I had a 100% charge and because I was under 70% charge when returned a $35 charging fee was applied. I did call Hertz to disupute their 100% but they blew me off even though I only drove 19 miles, also noted on the bill. Learned 2 things on this trip, NEVER rent from HERTZ, and the Model Y, well just say NO.

BTW, the cost of the rental was $166.00 and NO insurance or extras was selected.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Condorll

I rented a Model Y from Hertz for 24 hours on a short trip. When I got the car it had a 83% charge. I turned it in the next day after driving only 19 miles with 68% charge left. Do the math from 100% to 0% that is 126 miles of range. To add insult to disapointment when I checked in at Hertz the bill claimed I had a 100% charge and because I was under 70% charge when returned a $35 charging fee was applied. I did call Hertz to disupute their 100% but they blew me off even though I only drove 19 miles, also noted on the bill. Learned 2 things on this trip, NEVER rent from HERTZ, and the Model Y, well just say NO.

BTW, the cost of the rental was $166.00 and NO insurance or extras was selected.

I'd rather chew tin foil than take an EV for a rental.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

It's a long article, but worth the read on a Sunday morning or afternoon. It pretty much covers everything from the mining of battery materials and energy used to do that, to production costs EV vs ICE, technology and the ability to advance for both EV and ICE (ICE has so much more potential and really could be cleaner and cheaper over time). Pretty much in-depth of what much of the discussion has been here for so many pages.


SPOILER ALERT: EV's aren't all they're cracked up to be.

What the article missed and what most what people still fail to understand is the impact of reducing gasoline usage as EV replace ICEV. I've written numerous times in this thread, changing the ratios of fuels and chemicals distilled from crude oil is mostly fixed within very small deviation on a per-refinery basis. If the world wants aviation fuels to still fly and heating oil to heat homes, and the myriad of chemicals that make the world work and produce products, the amount of gasoline production is fixed in ratio to those other fuels and chemicals. The petrochemical industry just can't stop making gasoline overnight (that means decades) without massive tech refresh of the refinery infrastructure. That will impact all of us with higher costs to operate and enjoy our lives. Reducing gasoline use reduces the other fuels and chemicals that are produced along with it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

"The narrative has taken over that EVs aren't growing; they're growing. It's just growing at a slower pace than the industry and, quite frankly, we expected," Ford Chief Financial Officer John Lawler said on the earnings call according to Automotive News. Lawler said Ford will need less EV capacity in the near term as demand has "softened."


Translated as despite the rhetoric and the legislation and incentive etc the customers aren't prepared to pay for their own punishment.

Utter BS. EV development and production are long term strategic business decisions made by corporations. Drastic change from plans just announced 12 months ago, is the opposite of expectation.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

I'd rather chew tin foil than take an EV for a rental.

I'd rent one for a week just out of gearhead and lifestyle curiosity. I'm sure it would not sway me from my current positions regarding the topic; the math is too easy to understand. But I'm open to be changed.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd rent one for a week just out of gearhead and lifestyle curiosity. I'm sure it would not sway me from my current positions regarding the topic; the math is too easy to understand. But I'm open to be changed.

Maybe, my position is that if I'm on holiday I don't need any unnecessary stress like worrying about figuring out charging stations etc.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

What the article missed and what most what people still fail to understand is the impact of reducing gasoline usage as EV replace ICEV. I've written numerous times in this thread, changing the ratios of fuels and chemicals distilled from crude oil is mostly fixed within very small deviation on a per-refinery basis. If the world wants aviation fuels to still fly and heating oil to heat homes, and the myriad of chemicals that make the world work and produce products, the amount of gasoline production is fixed in ratio to those other fuels and chemicals. The petrochemical industry just can't stop making gasoline overnight (that means decades) without massive tech refresh of the refinery infrastructure. That will impact all of us with higher costs to operate and enjoy our lives. Reducing gasoline use reduces the other fuels and chemicals that are produced along with it.

There will be significant consequences or unintended issues when you take a product out of the economy/equation. Loss of gas tax will have to be replaced on top of the cost of the increased electrical capacity. This is going to be way more expensive than anyone has projected and we all know who's going to pay.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

Maybe, my position is that if I'm on holiday I don't need any unnecessary stress like worrying about figuring out charging stations etc.

100% percent agree with that. On vacation, nope; I'll go ICEV every time. Most EV'ers will rent ICEV too for a road trip vacation.

[Car-Addicted]

This is a simplified example of the byproducts from refining a barrel of crude oil. It's that 10.1% that the Greenies will be whining for if no oil is refined.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd rent one for a week just out of gearhead and lifestyle curiosity. I'm sure it would not sway me from my current positions regarding the topic; the math is too easy to understand. But I'm open to be changed.

Test driving is tesla is so easy.. all online..
I did it a year ago. They let me have a model y for 2 hours. It was easy for me to realize it was a no from me

[cfm56d7b]

It's important to note that not all crude oil grades are alike.

There are three primary qualities that differentiate one oil from another: weight, sweetness, and TAN count.

Heavy oil: evaporates slowly and contains material that will be used to make heavy products like asphalt. Light oil: requires less processing and produces a greater percentage of gasoline and diesel than heavy oil.

Sweet oil: has very low levels of sulfur, well under 1%. Sour crude: has as much as 1-2% of sulfur. Midstream companies and refiners that transport, store, and process sour oil know they need extra treating capabilities to take out the sulfur and sweeten the product.

TAN stands for “Total Acid Number.” The TAN count of oil is a measure of how corrosive it is. If a crude has a high TAN number, producers must use more robust metallurgy than standard so their processes can handle that corrosivity and keep the crude in the pipe.

Diesel prices are up 40% since May 2023 due to production curbs by Russia and Saudi Arabia. Why both of these countries decided to cut production is a different discussion.

Diesel is in the price of everything in case there is interest in learning more about inflationary trends.

In 2021, 61% of all electricity was generated in the US by burning fossil fuels: gas - 38.4%, coal - 21.9%, and oil - 0.6%.

https://www.epa.gov/power-sector/ele...-sector-basics

At least in the foreseeable future, the more electricity is demanded by EVs, the more fossil fuels will be burned.