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      01-16-2013, 05:41 AM   #23
roadsta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsta View Post
Very interesting indeed. This is quite a big difference, this is more than 10% taller.

Please elaborate if you can. What is the source?

Good catch.

R.
Bonz, still trying to get you to note.

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      01-16-2013, 10:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by neversummer78 View Post

In Sport mode, the car can really dance at freeway speed, but that's probably why my MPG is so bad and burn a lot of engine oil.
I don't think Sport mode does anythign that would cause a change in MPG or oil burnage, in and of itself. Sport firms up the suspension a bit, which won't do it, and changes the throttle mapping, which wouldn't do it. The throttle mapping just changes the response to the gas pedal- in Comfort mode you have to push it further than in Sport mode to get the same response.

In the automatic, I suppose Sport mode probably holds gears longer, which could make a difference, but cruising in either mode wouldn't, I'd think, be any different from an MPG or oil perspective, and even hammering it the difference would be on the margins, at the top of gears.

In the 6-speed, Comfort mode engages a rev matching feature which is fun for downshifts, though pointless, and is really really annoying in town or around speed bumps. If I'm coasting with the clutch in in, say, 2nd gear, it holds revs up high, which is just stupid sounding. A downshift heading into a turn also won't provide the deceleration I want, since the revs match to the wheel speed, and it takes longer for the engine braking to be effective.

Short story, I hate Comfort mode. I find it useless at best, and annoying at worst.
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      01-16-2013, 04:22 PM   #25
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Well if you drive 50 in comfort-mode your revs are lower than in sport-mode so obviously you use more gas in sport-mode...
Or am I wrong here?
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      01-16-2013, 07:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctenidae View Post
I don't think Sport mode does anythign that would cause a change in MPG or oil burnage, in and of itself. Sport firms up the suspension a bit, which won't do it, and changes the throttle mapping, which wouldn't do it. The throttle mapping just changes the response to the gas pedal- in Comfort mode you have to push it further than in Sport mode to get the same response.

In the automatic, I suppose Sport mode probably holds gears longer, which could make a difference, but cruising in either mode wouldn't, I'd think, be any different from an MPG or oil perspective, and even hammering it the difference would be on the margins, at the top of gears.

In the 6-speed, Comfort mode engages a rev matching feature which is fun for downshifts, though pointless, and is really really annoying in town or around speed bumps. If I'm coasting with the clutch in in, say, 2nd gear, it holds revs up high, which is just stupid sounding. A downshift heading into a turn also won't provide the deceleration I want, since the revs match to the wheel speed, and it takes longer for the engine braking to be effective.

Short story, I hate Comfort mode. I find it useless at best, and annoying at worst.
Yeap, automatic behaves differently in different driving mode. If I am cruising at freeway speed and switch from Comfort to Sport, then rev goes up a notch (may be down a gear) which is why MPG is worse. However, that should not matter for 6 speed. I used to have MCS 6 speed, and Sport button is just sharpening throttle and make steering wheel heavier. I also think that suspension feels firmer, but that could just be me b/c I doubt that MCS has adjustable suspension.
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      01-17-2013, 10:11 AM   #27
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Interesting. If revs go up for the same speed when switching from Comfort to Sport, you must be dropping a gear. I wonder if Sport drops 6th gear (or whatever the tallest gear is in the autos)?

In the stick, I never go into 5th, and skip from 4th to 6th. Really, 3rd is tall enough to get to cruising speed, but there's no real need generally to top it out. I'll drop for 6th to 4th to pass or if I need a pop of power.
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      01-18-2013, 04:10 PM   #28
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Going to sport mode from comfort definitely drops a gear on the freeway. The auto is an 8 speed. While cruising on the freeway in 8th gear switching to sport will drop it down to 7th. The throttle mapping also holds the gears much longer resulting in constant higher rpm and therefore higher gas consumption. The gas mileage definitely is affected while in sport mode....not that it matters!!! lol
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      01-18-2013, 04:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsta View Post
Bonz, still trying to get you to note.

R.
Sorry roadsta. Been away. I originaly picked up on the final drive change from aother poster. Don't recall which Forum. I then confirmed on BMW's website under specifications AND in the press releases.
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      01-19-2013, 09:53 AM   #30
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I don't even see 2013 6er models in this list. Besides, I would tend to believe the BMW website and press releases over some website that tries to collect data on every vehicle on the planet. Especially when the two former sources agree.

That said, I cannot be 100% certain unless I open the diff and count the ring and pinion gear teeth myself. 640s may have different ratios than 650s, but I think we were just discussing 2012 650 vs 2013 650.
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      01-20-2013, 10:57 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bönz View Post
I don't even see 2013 6er models in this list. Besides, I would tend to believe the BMW website and press releases over some website that tries to collect data on every vehicle on the planet. Especially when the two former sources agree.

That said, I cannot be 100% certain unless I open the diff and count the ring and pinion gear teeth myself. 640s may have different ratios than 650s, but I think we were just discussing 2012 650 vs 2013 650.

The links below are for the 2012 and 2013 6er brochures:
2012 BMW 6 Series Brochure (Zmag)
2013 BMW 6 Series Brochure (pdf)


2012 650 final drive ratio 3.08 (pg 66)
2013 650 final drive ratio 2.81 (pg 66)
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      01-21-2013, 12:18 PM   #32
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Agreed. I looked at the wrong column (640i) on attached when I posted the 2012 ratio. Still a ~9% taller ratio for 2013.

The Tu equiped cars must have been demonstrating increased consumption during development so BMW decreased the final drive ratio. Regardless, the 2013s are still faster.

I'm curious how the N63 vs N63Tu equiped 6ers would feel drivability-wise side-by-side given the taller ratio in the latter and the slightly different torque curves. I wonder if any of this is even noticable under normal driving.
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      01-22-2013, 05:46 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bönz View Post
I'm curious how the N63 vs N63Tu equiped 6ers would feel drivability-wise side-by-side given the taller ratio in the latter and the slightly different torque curves. I wonder if any of this is even noticable under normal driving.
One thing I am sure of - there will not be 0.4s between the two cars 0-60mph, not with a 10% taller final drive. (2012=4.9s, 2013=4.5s in the specs.)

The 2013 should be a bit faster given the engine output, but 10% on the final drive is quite a lot. I would really like to see these two cars tested against each other. My bet - somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2 s.

Interestingly, in the local (Australian) spec, the 0-100kmh spec is given at 4.9s, the same as your 0-60 mph. But 100kmh = 62.13mph, so converted to 0-60mph, our spec says 4.7s for the 2012.

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      01-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #34
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You're not going to hit final gear going 0-60, of course.
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      01-22-2013, 12:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadsta View Post
One thing I am sure of - there will not be 0.4s between the two cars 0-60mph, not with a 10% taller final drive. (2012=4.9s, 2013=4.5s in the specs.)

The 2013 should be a bit faster given the engine output, but 10% on the final drive is quite a lot. I would really like to see these two cars tested against each other. My bet - somewhere between 0.1 and 0.2 s.

Interestingly, in the local (Australian) spec, the 0-100kmh spec is given at 4.9s, the same as your 0-60 mph. But 100kmh = 62.13mph, so converted to 0-60mph, our spec says 4.7s for the 2012.

R.
I agree. Moreover, most of the 0-60 on two cars so close will be the launch. Hell, one could launch the same car twice and get a 0.2 difference (or worse with a bad hookup). But over a greater distance, no doubt the 2013 would pull ahead. It's the area under the curve that counts.

Quote:
You're not going to hit final gear going 0-60, of course.
We are not talking about 8th gear in the transmission. We are talking about the final drive ratio in the differential. It's a torque multiplier for every gear.
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      01-22-2013, 08:04 PM   #36
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Okay, you guys forced me to do some math.

2012 2nd gear at 7,000rpm = 57.5mph
2013 2nd gear at 7,000rpm = 63.1mph

So add at least 0.2s for the additional shift.
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      01-23-2013, 12:37 PM   #37
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Give or take, there's 0.2 of the 0.4 sec difference in roadsta's post above. Still would be interesting to see these cars side by side. It's not the first to speed that wins. It's the first to distance.

Of course, there's far more to these cars than 0-60. If I wanted to drag race, I'd buy a....no I wouldn't.
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      01-23-2013, 07:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bönz View Post
It's not the first to speed that wins. It's the first to distance.
And that's one of the many reasons I prefer xDrive!

I assume I'll need to take my 650xi to the track and see how it compares to Dinan 550xi. That car could hit 0-60 in less than 4.0 secs.
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